FAIR Conference 2008 Live Blog - August 7

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FAIR Conference (08/07/2008) Powered by: CoveritLive
8:53 [Image] exposition center.jpg 
8:54
 Well, here we are. About 10 minutes before the FAIR Conference starts. This is a picture of the outside of the South Towne Exposition Center in Sandy, Utah, on August 7th, 2008.
8:54
 They have a sign out front that looks like this:
8:54 [Image] fair sign.jpg 
8:55
 This is what the empty Conference hall looked like when I arrived around 8:00am this morning:
8:55 [Image] conference hall.jpg 
8:56
 As you can see, they’ve got a stand at the front, with two screens set up on either side.
8:56
 The hall is big enough to fit several hundred people.
8:56
 Here is a close-up of the stand:
8:56 [Image] stand.jpg 
8:58
 You can see on the stand that they have a podium, and a table with 3 mics. I’m guessing that this will be used for the panel discussion with Blake Ostler’s philosophy presentation.
8:59
 And here is a picture of little ol’ me, having a great time here at the FAIR Conference.
8:59 [Image] bryce.jpg 
9:00
 I’ve already met some people that I’ve only conversed with online. I said hi to Mike Parker from FAIR, and Kerry Shirts (the Backyard Professor), and Reed Russell. It’s great to put a face with a name.
9:02
 I’ve also met Hannah Rebekah, who is sitting right next to me. She’s commented here before on TempleStudy.com I think.
9:03
 They’ve said prayer, and Scott Gordon is making opening remarks. Turn off cell phones, restrooms, etc.
9:03
 Will introduce each speaker, turn time over to speaker, and then have a Q&A afterwards. 3×5 cards will be passed out into the audience during the presentation and later be given to the speaker to answer after their presentation.
9:04
 Announcing the bookstore online, and a lot of materials that they also have for sale here at the Conference.
9:04
 “We are really not good at raising money” says Scott Gordon.
9:05
 Looking for people to help raise funds for FAIR.
9:05
 [Comment From James]
The live audio streaming is not working!! Do they know that??
9:06
 I don’t know if they know if the live audio streaming is not working. You’ll have to contact them. I’m sitting about 5-6 people away from the tech guys.
9:10
 [Comment From Raven]
Are there many people in attendance?
9:11
 There are several hundred people here.
9:11
 Sorry for the lag… they bumped me off the wireless access for several minutes, so I missed Gordon’s comments for a few minutes there as I got reconnected.
9:11
 [Comment From James]
Oh it just started working!!
9:12
 Good! I think there is a couple minute lag time for the live audio stream.
9:12
 Mike Ash has been introduced and is not introducing his book, “Shaken Faith Syndrome.”
9:12 [Image] Mike Ash 
9:13
 er… he is “now” introducing his book… see, I’m going to have spelling mistakes as we go here.
9:13
 He is continuing to introduce his book.
http://www.shakenfaithsyndrome.com/
9:13
 [Comment From BHodges]
A lot of folks here today.
9:14
 Is this many more people than have attended in the past, Blair? Where you sitting, anyway?
9:15
 Ash is explaining the term “syndrome.”
9:16
 The definitions from Dictionary.com
9:16
 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/syndrome
9:17
 [Comment From BHodges]
I think there are more than last year, and a lot more women. I am on the second row on the left side.
9:17
 Cool. I’m on the third row on the very right hand side.
9:17
 “Shaken Faith” from the term applied to those who shake babies…
9:18
 [Comment From BHodges]
Ash is saying Shaken Faith syndrome is not a disease, it is the result of the actions of another trying to hurt or damage. plus it was catchy.
9:18
 Ash saying some words about “What is Doubt?”
9:20
 When we encounter information that conflicts with our firm convictions about something, we have a strange feeling… like buyers remorse
9:20
 Cognitive Dissonance - thoughts in disharmony
9:21
 this creates intellectual, physical, and emotional discomfort
9:22
 sometimes we make up excuses to help relieve cognitive dissonance
9:22
 the level of discomfort is in proportion to the amount of conviction you have
9:24
 the weight of our different convictions
9:24
 the weight of our convictions
9:25
 [Comment From Patrick]
Does Ash agree with your recent post, Bryce, that those with “shaken faith” only stay in the church for “social reasons” and are in a state of “pure apostasy”?
9:26
 we can 1. reject the new information as “false”
9:26 [Standby]  be back in a sec
9:27
 we can 2. reject the new information as “unimportant”
9:28
 patrick - my post was not about those with “shaken faith” but with those who purposefully choose to not follow the authorities of the church, and lead others to believe the same way.
9:30
 our critics believe that faithful members tend to choose the less rational approaches to address issues
9:31
 we can 3. Change our cognitions or beliefs
9:32
 [Comment From James]
It sounds like a summary of the first couple chapters of his book, which is excellent by the way!
9:33
 critics believe that evidence proves that the Church is not true, even if they are admittedly completely unfamiliar with LDS scholarly arguments for the Church
9:34
 ironic since our critics often believe that members of the Church are the ones who are not open-minded
9:34
 we can 4. Adding cognitions or information to validate the original belief.
9:35
 when we find out more information and research it more, our original belief may, in fact, be correct.
9:36
 example - the gold plates do not have to be pure gold in order to be called “gold” plates
9:37
 common elements of those who leave the church for intellectual reasons…
9:37
 * fundamentalist view of the scriptures or the role of prophets
9:38
 * confusing rumors in the church for doctrine or revelation
9:39
 sometimes we see things in black and white, when it may not be the case.
9:40
 example - either there were horses in the Book of Mormon or there were not…
9:40
 we need to use our brains as well as our hearts when we study the gospel
9:41
 we don’t want to live with disillusions
9:42
 * unrealistic expectations of prophets
9:42
 * imposing our views on others
9:42
 not every word spoken by a General Authority is inspired.
9:43
 they are our leaders who give us guidance to the waters of truth, but they cannot make us drink
9:43
 many of those who’ve left the church is over the issue about the role of a prophet.
9:44
 [Comment From Christopher]
Bryce, so far much of Mr. Ash’s presentation seems to be in direct opposition to much of what you’ve been blogging lately. I hope we can get some of your own impressions of his presentation.
9:46
 Chris - none of what Ash has said have I disagreed with. On the contrary, I recently had a discussion with my father about the geography of the Book of Mormon. He believed that since certain prophets had, on occasion, said certain things about New York that the geography had to occur there. I disagreed, and presented the same information about the role of prophets. But when the prophets and apostles repeatedly teach doctrines, we are not free to disregard them.
9:46
 * confusing tradition with doctrine
9:48
 Ash is talking about the same thing about BoM geography that I just noted. Book of Mormon geography has often been based on tradition, and not on evidences, research, etc., that we are discovering today.
9:49
 Prophets can accept traditions of their day without it being a revelation from God.
9:49
 [Comment From Matt W.]
This is awesome Bryce, thanks for using tech to make those of us unable to attend have a window
9:49
 You’re welcome Matt.
9:49
 * imposing our views on others
9:50
 this is what I think many dissidents of the Church are involved in that I don’t think is right.
9:50
 [Comment From BHodges]
For anyone who can’t follow the entire proceeding, I will post a summary of notes on Life On Gold Plates as well
9:51
 [Comment From BHodges]
That way, latecomers can pick up in real time, read notes later if desired
9:51
 [Comment From Matt W.]
Mike Ash is awesome, he wrote the best article I’ve ever read in support of evolution from an LDS perspective.
9:51
 I’d be interested in reading that article by Mike Ash on evolution. I, personally, disagree with much of the evolution arguments in light of the gospel. But I can certainly learn more.
9:53
 for example, in the Bible, writers often referred to the “whole earth,” when they meant their locality, not the entire world
9:53
 [Comment From Matt W.]
It’s called “THe Mormon Myth of Evil Evolution” you can read it here http://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdf
9:53
 I’ll take a look at it. Thank you!
9:53
 * unrealistic expectations of science and scholarship
9:54
 DNA/Archaeology are too limited to damage the truth of the Book of Mormon. See the FAIR website for more info. www.fairlds.org
9:54
 Bias
9:56
 anti-Mormons clearly have bias too…
9:56
 [Comment From Raven]
From your notes, Bryce, it looks like his book might be pretty interesting. I guess I’ll have to set aside my dislike of the cover design and buy it :)
9:57
 Yes. :) Maybe I can offer some design next time.
9:57
 [Comment From James]
Ash’s presentation on Horses in the Book of Mormon at last years FAIR conference is posted on FAIR’s main page, and it is the best I’ve ever seen on the subject. It combines all facets of the issue into one great paper. It has pictures too!
9:57
 [Comment From James]
Yes, the cover design has recieved some criticism, but the book is wonderful.
9:58
 members of the Church can’t remain ignorant of LDS scholarship. This is something I have talked about before. Our challenge is to get the word out.
9:58
 [Comment From Hans]
So tough to get work done and follow notes. I’ll try to keep following and check out other summaries later.
9:59
 All of this will be available after the conference, too, permanently on this website.
10:00
 Ash is now answering questions… If people just want to argue, then it is not worth defending the Church with them. It will go nowhere.
10:01
 when should we inoculate a member? we should NOT throw out these things for shock value
10:01
 let’s not be participants in damaging someone else’s testimony
10:01
 we need to educate in a faithful context.
10:02
 just airing dirty laundry gets us nowhere, and can do more damage than good.
10:02
 [Note that some of these comments are my own, mixed with what Ash is saying. I will try to differentiate when I can.]
10:03
 We should use our own minds, but we should not go around teaching things in opposition with what the prophets and apostles are teaching us.
10:04
 Scott Gordon has also announced that there is a liveblogging commentary going on at http://www.fairblog.org/2008/08/07/fair-conference-day-1-open-thread/
10:04
 the next presentation starts at 10:10am
10:05
 it will be by Mark Wright, entitled, “Deification: Divine Inheritance and the Glorious Afterlife in the Book of Mormon and Ancient Mesoamerica.”
10:06
 here is a photo of Mike speaking:
10:07 [Image] Mike Ash speaking.jpg 
10:07
 I’m very interested in this next presentation by Mark Wright
10:09
 I attended his presentation a couple months ago at the Olivewood Bookstore (www.olivewoodbooks.com), about Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon. It was really great.
10:10
 He pointed out Mesoamerican elements that he sees in the text of the Book of Mormon. Often, he said, we look for the the reverse, the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, which isn’t the same.
10:10
 I believe Wright is doing his doctorate dissertation on the subject he will be presenting.
10:11
 here is a little bio and picture of Mark Wright:
http://www.fairlds.org/conf08b.html#Wright
10:11
 [Comment From Matt W.]
I’ve never heard of Mark Wright, Any CV on him?
10:12
 his dissertation has to do with “divine kingship among the ancient Maya civilization.” A subject which is very interesting for temple studies.
10:18
 title of presentation, “Deification: Divine Inheritance and the Glorious Afterlife in the Book of Mormon and Ancient Mesoamerica.”
10:19
 Mark Wright is a Nibley fellow (scholarship?) by FARMS
10:19
 Scott Gordon is introducing him
10:20
 This is going to be good.
10:22
 he’s not going to talk about geography in the Book of Mormon… he believes Mesoamerica is the right place
10:22
 Deification - the doctrine that humans can become gods.
10:23
 http://www.lds.org/museum/exhibit/images/d31_mr.jpg
Church Museum of Art…
10:27
 sometimes we think in our modern context, when we need to think in ancient ways in order to truly understand what the ancients were saying.
10:27
 gods or deities in Mesoamerican Studies = “Supernatural sentient beings that appear in sacred narrative”
10:29
 Mesoamericans had a belief in distinct gods
10:29 [Image] Mark Wright speaking.jpg 
10:30
 Book of Mormon describes distinct deities, just like the ancient Mesoamericans did.
10:31
 we have different descriptions of these gods by the Mesoamericans as kings, a lamb, a rock, sun, etc.
10:31
 there are also devil “deities”
10:32
 the ancient Maya believed that there were celestial gods and underworld gods
10:32
 Satan is called the “god of this world” in 2 Cor. - http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_cor/4/4#4
10:33
 the Mesoamericans believed in these underworld gods, but clearly did not worship them
10:33
 “idol gods”
10:34
 “God sitting upon his throne surrounded by other gods” - Mesoamerican sculpture depicts some of this (showing picture)
10:35
 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/1/8#8
10:35
 Mesoamerican had a distinct Triad of deities
10:36
 each locality had a different set of three gods, at least by name
10:36
 The Palenque Triad…. but we don’t know their specific name, but we call them by their letter designation.
10:37
 [Comment From austin s]
Does he address the fact that Lehi in that scripture was still in Jerusalem, not mesoamerica?
10:38
 Austin, that is irrelevant since Nephi wrote the story when he was in the New World, and I believe it was Alma who also referenced it later, which shows that it was a tradition among those in the Book of Mormon who were in the New World.
10:39
 Here is Alma referencing Lehi’s vision - http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/36/22#22
10:40
 the king was anointed to become king. a number of enthronement rituals in order to become king, and therefore become a god after death.
10:41
 rituals endowed the Mesoamerican ruler into a sacred person, or holy
10:41
 the kings expected to be deified after death
10:42
 they received the glory of the Sun god, although they didn’t believe that they replaced that god
10:43
 [Comment From austin s]
Right, I can see the Alma reference being understood in a mesoamerican deity sort of context, I just don’t think Nephi would have been particularly influenced by interactions with a completely alien religion in the new world having been taught and lived in Jerusalem etc. I’m just interested to hear the whole story, I’m sure he has other scriptures. Thanks for all this, Bryce, btw.
10:44
 I don’t understand Austin. What completely alien religion?
10:44
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10:45
 the rulers were intermediaries between the people and their deities
10:47
 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/2/10#10

King Benjamin would not have had to warn the people to not think of him as the deity, if some did not think of him as such.

10:47
 [Comment From austin s]
Ah I guess he is arguing that the Nephites influenced mesoamerican religion, correct? I thought he was arguing that the mesoamericans who were already there had similar themes in their religion. That’s probably where the confusion came in.
10:48
 burning of blood “incense” in a bowl as an offering to their deities
10:49
 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/34/13#13
10:50
 Mesoamericans believe that they had a deity that had blood that could be sacrificed for the world
10:53
 http://www.belizephonecard.com/freestuff/wallpaper/wpimages/maya_temples/tikal/tikal107.jpg
10:54
 Something like this structure in Tikal could have served the same function as the tower that King Benjamin used to speak to his people
10:54
 the ancients had beliefs in the distinct myths of creation, sacrifice and the anointed king. Las Pinturas Temple - San Bartolo Murals
10:56
 one elite individual was responsible for the enthronement of the king. there are Mesoamerican art that depicts this.
10:56
 [Comment From BHodges]
awesome that you can include the pictures
10:56
 Yea, I like that ability too.
10:57
 reading a text where it talks about one Mesoamerican ruler anointing and enthroning another ruler in mortality
10:57
 this enthronement happened in the sacred buildings of the Mesoamericans
10:58
 Altar Q, Copan Honduras
10:58
 depicts one ruler passing the torch of kingship to another ruler
10:59
11:00
 entire cities mentioned in Mesoamerican texts still cannot to be found by archaeologists
11:02
 rulers received new names of deities
11:03
 Book of Mormon describes that as we take on the name of Christ we can become like Him.
11:03
 “sit down” - succession to the throne
11:03
 “sitting down” is often referenced in the scriptures, and this is an enthronement image in heaven
11:03
 [Comment From BHodges]
this is awesome
11:04
 agreed!
11:04
 [Comment From Hans]
can’t wait for the full text. i hope that he can include all of his pictures
11:05
 Yea, I hope he includes his PowerPoint of his presentation when he publishes it.
11:05
 [Comment From BHodges]
As children of the kingdom, we are joint-heirs with Christ. We are said to be sat with Him in the throne, inheriting all the Father hath. Among the classic Maya, the term for “seated” referring to an office are used, along with the concept of ascension and deification; as the Book of Mormon uses the concept of “sitting down” with the forefathers on thrones of glory.
11:06
 http://www.utexas.edu/cofa/a_ah/dir/precol/images/83_tikal.gif
11:07
 Tikal Stela 31
11:08
 [Comment From Brad]
What was the commentary about whole cities not being found…?
11:08
 He said that there was evidence among many Mesoamerican artifacts of an entire city that has still not been found anywhere
11:08
 [Comment From Hans]
fascinating! also in light of Egyptian and Babylonian deification rituals for kings, it is amazing that nearly identical themes existed with the maya
11:09
 [Comment From Brad]
But what was his point about that as it relates to the Book of Mormon and LDS theology?
11:10
 There was something else in the texts that he was referring to… something about names I believe.
11:10
 [Comment From BHodges]
Mark is showing that the concept of deification has impressive parallels in the Book of Mormon, which in turn parallel current LDS thought on deification
11:11
 Q&A session now - there is a standard saying among Mesoamerican texts in which they often used “And it came to pass…”
11:12
 [Comment From Brad]
I’m still lost as to the relevance/significance of the entire missing cities. How did that fact relate to the rest of the presentation?
11:12
 he said that in passing.
11:14
 man, he talks fast.
11:14
 fascinating presentation. I look forward to the publishing of this one.
11:15
 [Comment From BHodges]
it was an aside that basically said “take what i am saying with caution in regards to the archeology because it is still preliminary in terms of the “science.”
11:15
 [Comment From Brad]
but you type fast! :)
11:16
 next presentation is Margaret Young and Darius Gray - “Nobody Knows, the Untold Story of Black Mormons”
11:16
 [Comment From Hans]
agree, that was great.
11:16
 [Comment From Raven]
What a cool presentation! Looking forward to the published version.
11:16 [Image] Darius Gray 
11:17 [Image] Margaret Young 
11:17
 [Comment From Raven]
I’ve heard that one (”Nobody knows…”) is supposed to be pretty great, too.
11:18
 Bio of Darius Gray - http://www.fairlds.org/conf08b.html#Gray
11:18
 Bio of Margaret Young - http://www.fairlds.org/conf08b.html#Young
11:19
 [Comment From Brad]
are you going to have all the day’s evens in one live blog? It may be wise to break it into separate “sessions”, or whatever CoveritLive calls them.
11:19
 yes, it will be all one liveblog. that is how CoveritLive does it.
11:20
 Darius is talking about their presentation and how it has been given at many venues, and has been well-received in those places
11:20
 It’s a video presentation.
11:22
 Various interviews about their embracing of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
11:22 [Image] Nobody Knows video.jpg 
11:23
 [Comment From Brad]
isn’t it a documentary?
11:23
 yea… I guess
11:24
 the questions that the gospel answers attracted them.
11:24
 [Comment From Brad]
If it is the one I have heard about, they have submitted it to several film festivals and won awards.
11:24
 Yes, it is the same one that has been submitted to film festivals.
11:25
 interviewing with Marvin Perkins, and others, about the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith
11:26
 1832 - Elijah Abel, from African descent, was baptized into the Church.
11:26
 was ordained an Elder, and later a Seventy
11:28
 He was given a patriarchal blessing by Father Smith. “thou hast been ordained an Elder, and will be protected from the power of the destroyer”
11:28
 Jane Manning James
11:28
 [Comment From Brad]
I believe his descendants were all given the priesthood…
11:29
 they were welcomed by the prophet Joseph Smith and Emma, and were welcomed to live in their house.
11:29
 [Comment From Brad]
which underscores that the restriction on the priesthood had to do with lineage
11:29
 [Comment From Brad]
not skin color
11:29
 [Comment From Brad]
http://www.blacklds.org/abel
11:31
 [Comment From Brad]
for some reason, the Lord allowed his lineage to have the priesthood. According to blacklds.org, his son and grandson also received the priesthood
11:31
 1964 - Darius Gray started meeting with the missionaries.
11:32
 [Comment From Brad]
the rights of the priesthood have always been restricted by lineage, even in the OT (Levites, sons of Aaron, Jews, etc)
11:32
 Darius’s mother did not want him to be part of, what she considered, a “racist” church
11:32
 but Darius wanted to know more, and continued searching it out.
11:33
 raised the question to the missionaries about the dark skin in the Book of Mormon
11:34
 missionary responded, “the primary implication is that you won’t be able to hold the priesthood”
11:34
 Darius thought they were hypocrites.
11:34
 he totally rejected baptism.
11:35
 he prayed about it, and received personal revelation that this was the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and that he was to join
11:36
 President Kimball - “I anticipate no major changes in the immediate future” when he became prophet.
11:37
 President Kimball pondered these things intently…
11:37
 He prayed in the temple with fervency, that something was extremely important to find out from the Lord…
11:38
 when the revelation on the priesthood came, it opened up the dreams of those who believed but who did not have the priesthood.
11:39
 “With great solemnity and seriousness, alone in the upper rooms of the temple, I offered my soul, and my efforts to go forward with the program… we said, Lord, we want only what is right.   We are   not making any plans…   We only want what thou dost want, and only when you want it, and not until.   And finally, we had the feeling, and the impressions from the Lord, that this was the correct thing to do, to make the gospel universal, to all worthy people.” - President Kimball
11:40
 http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/plswk12.jpg
11:41
 when Darius found out about the revelation he didn’t believe it at first…
11:42
 he picked up the phone and called President Kimball…
11:42
 he wasn’t there, but he was told that the revelation was true, and that it came from heaven
11:42
 [Comment From Matt W.]
Darius Gray is my hero.
11:43
 truth and reconciliation
11:45
 http://mormonstories.org/top10toughissues/elijahabel.jpg
Elijah Abel
11:47
 President Hinckley - “No man who makes disparaging remarks against another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ nor in harmony with the church of Christ…”
11:49
 the church has done so much good, that your hearts are right
11:49
 -Pastor AME Church
11:50
 “hell is hot, and eternity is long” - member didn’t want to go there :)
11:50
 she felt the Spirit so clearly, and testified to her that the Church was true.
11:50
 [Comment From BHodges]
I notice a huge flaw in this presentation.
11:51
 [Comment From BHodges]
Namely, we don’t get to see the whole thing!
11:51
 Right on!
11:51
 I wonder when they will publish it, either online, or on DVD.
11:52
 [Comment From BHodges]
I believe it is very preliminary as far as being released on dvd, but i think margaret has said it is something they would like.
11:53
 many Saints received personal revelation that they should continue to be the “link” for their posterity in the Church…
11:53
 [Comment From BHodges]
she posts blogs sometimes on By Common Consent, and is very easy to contact there, or even by email, from what i have seen
11:54
 “the Spirit testified to me of the truthfulness of the gospel, and I could not go and look the Savior in His eyes and say, ‘I couldn’t do it, they said mean things’”
11:54
 [Comment From Matt W.]
MArgaret posts at BCC, T&S, Mormon Mentality, occasionally. She responds to emails. My understanding is they basically had barely enough money to get the film released.
11:55
 you mean “made”? I don’t think it’s been released.
11:56
 “I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of the Lord, than mingle among the top brass in the tents of the wicked.”
11:56
 [Comment From Matt W.]
It’s been shown at about 10-15 festivals, so far as I know. Closest it came to me was Dallas… To far for me, sadly.
11:56
 [Comment From Matt W.]
But I did mean made
11:58
 if you had the power to change one thing, what would it be? “If I had the ability to be able to tell others about the truthfulness of the gospel, and what its done for me, truly, that’s what I would want” [paraphrased]
11:59
 The End - (lengthy applause)
12:00
 Q&A session
12:00
 scriptural basis for denying the priesthood? McKay cited the PoGP as the only thing he know of.
12:01
 Darius - Grant and McKay referred to it as a policy, not a doctrine, and that it would take revelation to change that policy
12:03
 The Church doesn’t try to explain why Brigham Young denied Elijah Abel to receive his endowment… it was not the policy until 1847… the date is usually set at 1852… when Brigham Young died, the question was renewed, and John Taylor called a meeting… they talked about “what is our policy”… it was still a question until 1879, and wasn’t solidified until 1908
12:04
 [Margaret Young]
12:05
 we’re not going to try to explain why there was a ban
12:06 [Image] Margaret Young and Darius Gray.jpg 
12:07
 Margaret Young and Darius Gray answering questions.
12:08
 We are committed Latter-day Saints. We must read all the scriptures, and everything around it, to understand it. Also through the Spirit… [Darius]
12:08
 when is the DVD coming out? They’ve been working on special features which are twice as long as the feature… a lot of material, interviews, etc.
12:10
 they are working on everything… it takes time… they hoped it would be available today… but they are swamped and have only one editor. Possibly will be out before Christmas 2008. It will be announced on FAIR’s website.
12:10
 end of questions
12:10
 It’s lunchtime! We’ll see you soon.
12:11 [Standby]  We are on lunch. Be back at 1:15pm MDT.
1:13
 Alright. We’re back.
1:13
 The next presentation is by Brian Birch, Blake Ostler, and James Faulconer on “Philosophy and Mormonism” - a panel discussion
1:14
 I must say, this liveblogging thing has worked out quite well so far. I’ve had some small difficulties, but mostly it’s been with the WiFi… I’ve got dropped off a couple times from the wireless internet access
1:16
 see bios here - http://www.fairlds.org/conf08b.html
1:16
 Daniel C. Peterson is moderating the discussion
1:18
 here is Scott Gordon introducing the panel:
1:18 [Image] introducing panel discussion.jpg 
1:19
 Peterson is introducing the discussion of philosophy in the Church
1:19
 [Comment From Matt W.]
Sweet, this is the one I’m excited about
1:19
 [Comment From Bill Hamblin]
Keep up the good work. I can attend FAIR indirectly from Oxford. Go tell him Bill Hamblin from Oxford says hi! I can’t open the photos however. More Barker vids will be up in a while.
1:20
 Gotta love the “Hi” from Bill Hamblin in Oxford. Great videos of your interview with Margaret Barker, by the way!
1:20
 [Comment From James]
The sound is coming in loud and clear through the FAIR live streaming
1:20
 [Comment From James]
Much better than this morning
1:20
 [Comment From James]
Thanks for the vids Bill!! Everyone around the bloggernacle is talking about them!
1:21
 “the philosophies of man mingled with scripture” - the most important statement in the Church on the subject - Blake Ostler
1:21
 [Comment From Hans]
too bad video is 1 fps
1:22
 we do the best we can do…
1:23
 when we stop and think deeply and carefully about something it is called philosophy - Ostler
1:23
 but there are upsides and downsides
1:25
 wow… I think some of this might be over my head… I’m going to have to study this one out on paper… Ostler talking about the existence and logical reason for evil
1:26
 he’s read Summa Theologica fully in Latin - whoa
1:26
 [Comment From KC]
I love Blake Ostler…he’s smarter than heck.
1:27
 [Comment From Hans]
bryce, when can we expect teach yourself latin on your blog? we’re way behind
1:28
 lol… I’d like to learn some Hebrew, actually… working on that currently
1:28
 [Comment From Bill Hamblin]
Anyone who has read the entire Summa Theologica in Latin needs to watch more TV!
1:28
 lol
1:29
 one of the purposes of philosophy is in our dealings with each other
1:30
 what is it about this religion that makes it so compelling to thinking people who make it the most precious thing in their lives, and devote their entire lives to it? our critics should consider this
1:31
 what are the most important questions that we can ask?
1:31 [Image] James Faulconer 
1:31
 Now to Faulconer
1:31
 [Comment From Hans]
how long is the summa theologica
1:32
 good question.
1:32
 how long is it in Latin?
1:32
 philosophy is the love of wisdom.
1:32
 religion too seeks wisdom
1:32
 [Comment From Hans]
even better question
1:39
 we’re back…. WiFi went down for a few minutes… sorry
1:39
 missed a few of Faulconer’s comments
1:39
 we are to explain the “hope” that we have to others
1:40
 “reason” has its origin in our relationship with others
1:41
 reason is an appeal to the understanding of another person
1:42
 we apologize, not for ourselves, but for our “hope” for something other than ourselves
1:42
 [Comment From bill hamblin]
The Summa is a couple thousand pages long.
1:42
 we apologize for our “hope” by bearing testimony
1:43
 we also apologize through philosophy
1:44
 not everyone needs to do philosophy… it is a kind of “disease”…. and it is incurable for those who have it.
1:44
 [Comment From Hans]
i might as well start reading the talmud to make up for lost time then.
1:44
 Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology
www.smpt.org
1:45
 [Comment From bill hamblin]
Does he mean apologize as “defend” or as “express regrets”
1:45
 defend
1:45
 now to Brian Birch
1:45
 actually, Brian D. Birch, not the anti-Mormon Brian Birch…
1:45 [Image] Brian Birch 
1:46
 how’s this photo, Brian?
1:46
 [Comment From bill hamblin]
If you get a chance, go tell Dan Peterson that Bill Hamblin says hi from Oxford
1:46
 will do!
1:47
 he has enjoyed the articles from FAIR on a variety of subjects
1:47
 the apologetic enterprise…
1:47
 “Philosophical Musings on Mormon Apologetics” - title of his remarks
1:47
 What is apologetics? apologia=a speech made in defense.
1:48
 [Comment From BHodges]
Here Birch seems to be using apologetics in the sense of defending the Church from criticism.
1:49
 apologetics = the defense by argument of Christian belief
1:50
 bad apologetics = triumphalism, and sloppiness
1:51
 logical fallacies = ad hominem & straw-man
1:51
 ad hominem = attacking the person and not the argument
1:51
 [Comment From Hans]
sloppiness?
1:51
 bad people can make good arguments and good people can make bad arguments
1:51
 we shouldn’t focus on the character of the person making the arguments
1:52
 straw-man = attacks a position other than that which the other has
1:53
 in ideal exchanges, we should be able to summarize accurately the other’s position with satisfaction
1:53
 [Comment From BHodges]
this is brilliant
1:53
 yes!
1:54
 we should seek learning by study and also by faith
1:54
 but how do we engage these two… we’ve been all over the map
1:54
 [Comment From Hans]
a good introduction to apologetics
1:55
 Elder Oaks essay on “Reason and Faith”
1:55
 incorrigable conclusion = no argument could change the conviction of one’s conclusions
1:55
 which conclusions should we accept? arguments which build faith, even if they are not the best arguments?
1:56
 he agrees that the articles from FAIR and FARMS are very good, but the publisher is not the indicator of good argument
1:57
 how do we know which argument is right? LDS rely on the Spirit, but so do some of our critics
1:57
 [Comment From BHodges]
and other LDS too
1:58
 one may be able to know something which is true without being able to show that it is true to others
1:59
 the arguments in play don’t work in the traditional sense because the conclusion can change in light of revising premises